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Question and Suggestion
My question: Any reason not to unprotect this page now?
Suggestion: Perhaps the "Requests and nominations for de-adminship" should be moved off on to another page, as that seems to be causing problems. Having this page protected from editing largely defeats the legitimate primary function.
Alternatively or additionally, perhaps we could have a seperate page along the lines of "Allegations of Sysop abuse"? -- Infrogmation 01:48, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Sysops aren't people, Admins are. IMO, "Allegations of Sysop/Adim abuse" would be just as bad as what "Conflicts between users" has become. I'm not sure what to do. --mav 01:52, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)~
I've unprotected the page, and cannot see why it was protected in the first place - Lir's complaint seems a perfectly valid one to me. Hephaestos does not have the authority to block signed in users except in cases of simple vandalism, which, as far as I can tell, this is not. Was the blocking reported anywhere at all (I don't see any discussion on Lir's talk page, and didn't see it mentioned on the mailing list). Incidentally, I do support the creation of Wikipedia:Requests for de-adminship or similar to make this sort of stuff separate. --Camembert
- It was protected due to an edit war (see the history). As I stated above, I think Lir's complaint against me is quite worthy of discussion. I think Lir's complaint against 168 is not, however, and that is what started the edit war. - Hephaestos 02:12, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Is admin abuse so bas as to merit its own page? --mav 02:10, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Such a page would be a fun place for the trolls to hang out, anyway. - Hephaestos 02:12, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Agree with both Mav and Heph. Lir's and Wik's loud complaints aside, I really don't see much evidence of sysops abusing their powers. This page seems the perfect venue for airing such problems. →Raul654 02:20, Jan 31, 2004 (UTC)
- IMO the question may not be if admin abuse is so bad, but rather if discussion/allegations of such are so bad as to diminish the functionality of the "Requests for adminship" page. I think that's already happening. -- Infrogmation 02:25, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- So the answer is to create a separate page where such baseless complaints can multiply? --mav
- Multiply and be ignored, yes. Like the ban requests. It seems the norm around here. - Hephaestos 02:30, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
(via edit conflict) - OK, I admit there was a reason to protect the page (and I admit, I didn't realise it was the 168 stuff - which does seem more trivial - which got it started), but I hope it's OK that I've unprotected it now. I'd ask the people who were removing Lir's complaints not to do so - you might disagree with Lir (I do myself in many ways), but the complaints aren't entirely ridiculous, and there's no reason to not allow them to be aired. Removing them might give the impression that we admins are so arrogant that we cannot possibly conceive of one of our number ever doing anyting wrong (yes, I know that's not how we feel, but perceptions matter if we're to be respected). Let the argument run its course, then remove them. In any case, having an edit war over it is pretty counter-productive.
I think a separate page for admin abuse would be a good thing not because admin abuse is particularly common or anything like that, but because if we're going to have edit wars over it such as this one, they shouldn't interfere with legitimate discussions about the creation of admins. Also, I think that this page ought to be such a nice place where people can say lovely things about each other and give one another a leg-up. I know it sounds wet, but all this vitriol is rather unpleasant and better sectioned off, IMO. --Camembert 02:31, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- The complaints were aired, Camembert. Possibly they should have been allowed to remain for a little longer before being removed to make room for more substantive matters, possibly not. Your general thrust is something I entirely agree with. However, these particular circumstances are a little different: Lir was not bringing a particular specific complaint about a particular specific administrator, Lir was casting wholesale complaints about every admin he had managed to cross swords with. The intention was clear: if you disagree with Lir about an article, Lir will attempt to get your sysop rights removed. If there was a genuine complaint, as opposed to a concerted campaign that amounted to complaining about everyone, it would be a different matter. In this case, however, it is a simple matter of Lir throwing mud in every direction, hoping that enough of it will stick, and that he will thus be a little freer to rampage through the Wikipedia, overriding any and all other community members with his customary gleeful edit wars. You can stop it now or you can stop it later. It's a whole lot easier, and less disruptive, to stop it now. Tannin 02:42, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- PS: your second para about not liking vitrol on this page, Camembert. Yes, I agree entirely. I am inclined to think that restricting this page to genuine complaints (which are few and far between) is the better way to do it, but I am open to persuasion on that. Tannin 02:44, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- In my opinion, Lir's complaint about Hephaestos banning him was a genuine one (and at the very least, it was a specific one against a specific admin) - admins shouldn't ban signed in users unless it's a case of simple vandalism. Of course, I wouldn't want to paint Lir whiter than snow - he has his foibles, let's say - and I'm sure Heph acted with good intentions, but this wasn't a clear-cut case of simple vandalism. There might be a case for banning Lir (I really don't know), but one admin making a snap decision to do so isn't on.
- I suppose part of the problem in removing complaints is that we don't have any procedure in place for desysopping people or any guidelines on what might constitute an action so bad that it would result in desysopping. This makes it difficult to say when an argument can really be said to have run its course and be deleted from the page with confidence. Anyway, I'm not going to say more about this - it's not a very fun subject :) Apologies for rambling on so. --Camembert 03:20, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
wow, I must say its rather horrifying to see you all discussing your own lack of over sight in such a cavalier manner. This does not bode well. "Genuine complaints" appears to be defined as those complaints which some unknown number of admins agrees with. The rabble such as myself clearly have no place here, our complaints are speedilly removed to our user pages, and the problem left to fester. Jack 02:51, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Quite right. We should not leave problems to fester. Instead, we should be much more proactive in dealing with our problem users, instead of letting them troll on forever. Tannin 02:59, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Excellent. I suggest you impliment a plan of harassment and intimidation of all who question your authority. The name for all who defy you is "Troll"! Seek out areas where these poor fools are attempting to utilize dubious resources and statistics (like the CIA world factbook) or in otherways divert from the "official wikipedia POV" of brutal nihilism. If they won't immediately cower before your superiority, bring in a squad of likeminded admins. Rearrange CbU in shocking and bizarre ways, carefully cutting and pasting passages so as to maximize their shame and insult. If that doesn't work, you can always unilaterally ban them. Just don't let Jimbo know about any of this! I hear he grows soft and weak in his later years, even mumbling about "welcoming new editors" and "inclusionism".... Jack 03:17, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Trying to summarize the discussion:
- The requests for adminship bit of the page is agreed to be a useful and successful utility page.
- The requests for de-adminship bit had been less so.
- Matter arising: Should the page be spilt. Two opinions:
- Yes) They are separate concerns.
- No) It would create another page for trolls.
- Matter arising: Should the page be spilt. Two opinions: